Curse

BigTru · Feb 26, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Powergaming PvE isn't about skill power as much as exploits, about AI abuse, or careful mob selection to give you an overwhelming, unfailing advantage over your opponents. It is about gear tanks that do nothing but cycle stances, about prot spirit against carefully selected mobs that can't remove or work around it, about herding mobs into tiny little AoEs and using skills that the AI is too dumb to break. How much individual skills cost is virtually irrelevant, as long as their effect is something that the chosen monsters cannot deal with. The rest of the build will make it work.

E.G. - the AI update that made it so monsters would no longer stand in a Firestorm like a mushroom. There might have been some sane voices in there talking about how the change was good for the game, but it was drowned out completely by the incessant bitching, whining, and threats to quit the game. Once Spiteful Spirit causes AoE flight you'll see the whole episode all over again.

QFT

As I wrote in Sardelac Sanitarium:

PvE simply doesn't encourage strategyor tactics becauseof it's lack of difficulty. There are plenty of PvP strategies that can be used in PvE, but why would you? PvE simply isn't difficult enough to require strategy or planning in the same sense as PvP. Your Warriors don't have to overextend and snipe the monks, your rangers don't have to cripple, and your necromancers don't have to spike. Not because it's inefficient, but because it'd be overkill with PvE's lack of difficulty.

Mustache Mayhem · Feb 26, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

wow I read this last page of posts- the most interesting threads I've seen on guru since last year =] ensign just ban his ass!

I think anet did a good job with the balance changes.. I mean it really did'nt change much as far as skilled players doing what they do in pve.. It hurt the newbs though who rely on things being made easy.. you can still do everything you could do before the updates

now the pvp crowd has bucktooth science involved over 8 players- there's really no comparison here! with the exception of the massive amount of iway groups pvp>pve.. the changes in pve have been nothing more than gold sinks when you think about it- AI is smarter and they added things to stop the casual player from exploiting it with no skill (protective bond anyone?), keys for chests.. god forbid you actually have to have skill to solo!

WasAGuest · Feb 26, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

It's all a matter of tastes really: I find PvP boring as can be. Why? It's the same thing over and over and over. Target X class and stop him/her from doing X skill. Run around in circles avoiding this and that... It's just not for me. I do enjoy watching it though - kinda like watching a race really. They go in circles for hours... and this is fun to watch (beats me why, but it is).
Why I find PvE more fun is the social part and the room for error. A bad pull or a goof by the player can wipe you out. So, yea the human factor vs the AI is what's fun for me.
As for balance, I just wish there was a way to seperate skill like they do character slots. In this way, they could fix un-balanced PvP skills and not break the skill in PvE. Same for the other way around.
Mostly though, I wish we could get some AI fixes and other tweaks that affect players but not break the characters they are playing.
Like what? Mobs projectile attacks almost never miss now. Even when running with sprint skills, the shots seem to almost always hit. I would love for my ranger to have that kind of accuracy. Even with RtW on, I can't match it.
Meteor spells "lock" the player in place and has a 100% hit rate. Do the same to mobs, they can still move and get out of the way as they meander about.
Other skills like that abound, let's fix that balance rather than messing with the players skills more.
Just my two cents, and as I am often told, it's worth about half that.

calamitykell · Feb 26, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

In any case calamity, stopping them to kamikaze is ok, but they should at least attack or cast a couple times through it, sinc eotherwise it would end up in even more abusal. Imagine a couple of mesmers just casting an empathy on all warriortype mobs or a backfire and them just not attacking while getting hit by damage. It would be an air spîkers wet dream.

I agree, but I think a better thing would to give enemy creatures semi viable skillsets. Give them some hex removal, some enchant removal, and not just in high-end areas. I think that would be better than simply whoring out 50 creatures in 1 aggro to make it difficult.

Kakumei · Feb 26, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

It's all a matter of tastes really: I find PvP boring as can be. Why? It's the same thing over and over and over. Target X class and stop him/her from doing X skill. Run around in circles avoiding this and that... It's just not for me. I do enjoy watching it though - kinda like watching a race really. They go in circles for hours... and this is fun to watch (beats me why, but it is).
Why I find PvE more fun is the social part and the room for error. A bad pull or a goof by the player can wipe you out. So, yea the human factor vs the AI is what's fun for me.
As for balance, I just wish there was a way to seperate skill like they do character slots. In this way, they could fix un-balanced PvP skills and not break the skill in PvE. Same for the other way around.
Mostly though, I wish we could get some AI fixes and other tweaks that affect players but not break the characters they are playing.
Like what? Mobs projectile attacks almost never miss now. Even when running with sprint skills, the shots seem to almost always hit. I would love for my ranger to have that kind of accuracy. Even with RtW on, I can't match it.
Meteor spells "lock" the player in place and has a 100% hit rate. Do the same to mobs, they can still move and get out of the way as they meander about.
Other skills like that abound, let's fix that balance rather than messing with the players skills more.
Just my two cents, and as I am often told, it's worth about half that.

I don't know why on earth you want to make PvE even easier but this is a bad way of thinking and you should stop.

Ensign · Feb 26, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

firestorm, searing heat, all the dot fire magic ones made them near useless in pve

A monster AI update has so little to do with PvP that it isn't funny. How can you even pretend that a tweak that has no effect on PvP whatsoever was 'made to help PvP at the expense of PvE'?

Oh, right, because if you didn't you'd have to concede the argument. And that is simply unacceptable compared to the alternative of making yourself look stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

Just because pvp complained about the lack of resemblences of pvp to pve.

Yeah that was a really common complaint back then. I know I for one was leading the charge of angry PvP players who wanted PvE to look like PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

Grenths balance got used only for ganking the guild lord, still useless in pve.

The skill has recieved buff after buff after buff and you're going to put it on the list of 'PvE skills that were destroyed because of PvP concerns'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

Natures renewal, hardly have seen a use in pve due to its disadvantage of making echantments and hexes so much longer to cast while before it was a decent way to lose the excessive hexes.

Right, it wasn't exactly, well, even used in PvE so why are you even bringing it up?

Maybe you didn't get the question the first time. We are looking for a *single important PvE skill* that was made useless in PvE *solely because of its abuse in PvP*. We're not looking for skills that were never important in PvE but broke PvP. We're looking for skills that were important parts of PvE strategy but got nerfed for reasons other than PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

There will prolly be more. Although I understand the reason for its 'nerfage', but in the end it did also influence the pve game, by in most cases not using them at all.

Right, those changes to Grenth's Balance and Nature's Renewal are still leaving shockwaves in the PvE community as players struggle to adapt to the loss of those key PvE powergaming skills.

The effects on PvE of the PvP nerfs to date have been so minimal that it's laughable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

No need for damagedealer over time in pve if any skirmish last less then 10 secs.

By 'over time' we're talking timeframes greater than half a second here. Only thing that outdamages a single warrior in his own right is a minion necro with momentum from previous mobs. There's always AI abuse, but, you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

Reason why warriors aren't used in pve as damagedealers is because in pvp warriors aren't eagerly targetted.

Huh? What does targeting in PvP have to do with PvE at all?

Warriors aren't used as damage dealers in PvE because they do not have massive AI exploitation tools on that front. The place they can exploit AI is through gear tanking, by forcing all the bots to attack him and then making himself as close to invincible as possible. One warrior can take the defensive burden of the entire team, and so he does.

The warrior does have one mass damage AI exploit skill - Gladiator's Defense. Coincidentally that skill also helps out with the warrior's AI exploit roles. It's the best warrior skill in PvE hands down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

If the view in pvp was only limited to your aggrobubble then warriors would have been used more as tanks as well.

Uh, no, I'm pretty sure our guys are smart enough to run past your shitty stance tank and look for the softies in the back, because we know they're there even if we can't see them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

That is an opinion.

That is an astute observation. Implied with that comment is 'all opinions are equal'.

Which is of course unmitigated garbage. If an opinion is based upon ignorance and mistruths there is absolutely no reason anyone should do anything other than laugh at it. If an opinion is based upon knowledge and understanding of the issues then it's something that you should pay attention to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

Why do warriors attack in pvp in stead of tank?

Because if they don't attack they aren't threatening and no one cares about them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

Heh, it is actually quite decent, just as empathy is quite decent but won't stop you from attacking if you smell my blood.

I'm just going to keep quoting you whenever you express an opinion about what's good in PvP to remind everyone of your credibility.

Regarding Spiteful Spirit - my point is that balancing points are irrelevant in PvE. Spiteful Spirit would still be used extensively in PvE even if it cost 25 energy, took 4 seconds to cast, and had a 60 second cooldown. Why? Because it's the only AoE exploit option left. AI abuse is such a powerful tool in PvE that skill power becomes irrelevant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

My point was that you in stead of pleeding for a usefull spell have asked for it to be a useless spell since it was useless in pvp as well.

What are you talking about? I haven't made any comments about what I thought should be done with Firestorm. Can you please restrain your criticisms to points I have actually made, instead of ones you wished I had made?

Firestorm was an AI abuse skill. Because of that it was going to be a powerhouse in PvE, pretty much regardless of how weak the actual effect was. Now it's not an AI abuse skill, at least not a gross one that's terribly abusive, so at least in theory it *could* be balanced, for either PvP or PvE. But again, I don't feel that's relevant for PvE because, as mentioned, it's not an AI abuse skill anymore. It doesn't matter how good they make Firestorm as long as Spiteful Spirit destroys the AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

At start it was celebrated

At first it was celebrated as a gimmick build, a neat trick that was fun to play. Now it's everywhere, because it's an overpowered machine that's degenerating the game. That's the process everything that's overpowered takes.

The difference, as I mentioned, is the attitude. If iWay gets hit with the nerf stick the community will rejoice. If a PvE equivilent, say, the 55 monk, gets obliterated this forum is going to be unreadable for a week due to all the bitching, whining, threats to quit the game, hate mail, petitions for a reversion, and otherwise opposition to the removal of that festering sore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

see previous post

You failed. GG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

No you pointed out points you consider ingnorant

And demonstrated rather conclusively why they were ignorant, if I may be so bold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

respecting someone elses opinion which is a basic right and not a priviledge.

I respect your right to have an opinion. That in no way means that I have to take your opinion seriously. You will not be heard until you have something to say, sorry. If the only responses that you can make to my charges are ad hominem...well, I rest my case.

Peace,
-CxE

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 26, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's not that there's no room for PvE concerns to be aired in a rebalance thread. It's that the vast, vast majority of PvE players don't know the first thing about skill balance or what's breaks the game.

So you're asserting that the vast vast majority of PvP players *do* know the first thing about skill balance or what breaks the game?

Hardly.

But this is a very typical elitist attitude amongst competitive online gamers across all types of games. While it's prevalent, it's hardly true. Normally dev teams have much more empirical and quantitive data (logs, etc) to provide skill balance than players who have their own narrow POV.

That goes for all gamer types, pvp or pve.

And as far as one skill nerf caused by PVP abuse that had a big impact on PVE play? Healing Seed comes to mind.

Desbreko · Feb 26, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

The AI update had very little to do with what Ensign was talking about. If it had never happened the elementalist would still need help.

I realize this. Ensign's thread is focused on elementalists in PvP and how they don't stack up as primary damage dealers. However, elementalists could do quite well as primary damage dealers in PvE before the update. And I primarily play PvE, so the AI update has everything to do with why I would like the elementalist to get some buffs.

See, the "Same here" bit of my post was agreeing with the person I quoted and, in turn, Ensign's thread. I'd like the elementalist to be able to deal more damage, and I think a lot of his ideas on how to do that are good. The rest of my post was just my reason for agreeing; the AI update made their one redeeming type of damage skill in PvE useless. I never associated Ensign's thread with the AI update.

frojack · Feb 27, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

So you're asserting that the vast vast majority of PvP players *do* know the first thing about skill balance or what breaks the game?

Hardly.

But this is a very typical elitist attitude amongst competitive online gamers across all types of games. While it's prevalent, it's hardly true. Normally dev teams have much more empirical and quantitive data (logs, etc) to provide skill balance than players who have their own narrow POV.

That goes for all gamer types, pvp or pve.

And as far as one skill nerf caused by PVP abuse that had a big impact on PVE play? Healing Seed comes to mind.

Quoted for the friggin' truth/

I know all about the bloody mental elite. Get it all the time at work.
Oh and btw. Another skill that received a ridiculously severe beating from the nerf bat, for no other reason than pvp I can imagine is Ether Renewal. Why? Was this really necessary? The best energy management skill in the game, for the most energy inefficient class in the game? Seemed like a good trade-off to me, but now the thing is friggin' useless for anything but farming.
I mean seriously. I could handle the reduced energy gain. But what the hell am I gonna' do in 7 seconds? cast 2 spells? Yeah. Great nerf that was...

moriz · Feb 27, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

don't know about you guys, but i kinda like the AoE change. 'cause when the monsters are running away, they aren't attacking you. this allows you and your party to focus on smaller groups of monsters at a time. also with the ignite arrow+frenzy trick, i can pin a group of monsters against a wall with my pet, and they won't even attack back.

anyways, if you're really scared of monsters running away, how about you pin them with water spells/traps? a little ingeniuity never hurts.

but yes, perhaps lower the casting times on some of those ele spells. those are ridiculous.

Mercury Angel · Feb 27, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Another skill that received a ridiculously severe beating from the nerf bat, for no other reason than pvp I can imagine is Ether Renewal. Why? Was this really necessary? The best energy management skill in the game, for the most energy inefficient class in the game? Seemed like a good trade-off to me, but now the thing is friggin' useless for anything but farming.
I mean seriously. I could handle the reduced energy gain. But what the hell am I gonna' do in 7 seconds? cast 2 spells? Yeah. Great nerf that was...

Though it was also an incredible PvE solo skill for the exact same reason is was good in PvP. I soloed griffons without even breaking a sweat again and again with it pre-nerf, and while I can still barely manage it now, it's a lot more difficult. My opinion of Ether Renewal is below, anyway.

In any case, a list if elites that I find to be not as useful as the non-listed ones (which either have excellent use in PvP, PvE, or both), and tentative skill change suggestions;

Warrior Elites -
Cleave: The numbers come out again and again with Eviscerate on top. Eviscerate's spiking power with Deep Wound is just far more useful than Cleave. But just adding more damage would make it a bit redundant. I'd actually suggest tacking on some additional effect, like "If this attack strikes a foe using a skill, that foe is interrupted", or Bleeding for 5+X seconds (Make use of the barbed axe heft XD) [Not actually especially serious on that one].

Battle Rage: People used this when it was broken, but it's only a rare arena gimmick build fixxed. You lose out on a lot of damage by giving up your attack speed buff, even with the adrenaline boost. Frenzy gives you a 50% damage and adrenal boost in comparison. Even if people used it to spam "Fear Me!", it wouldn't be that scary, if they'd remove the whole, "Lose all adrenaline" aspect of it.
"Fear Me!" at peak conditions [All attacks hitting, 13-14 tactics, wherever the Fear Me breakpoint is] with Frenzy| 4 energy loss every ~3.5 seconds, or approximately 3.4 pips of regen lost.
"Fear Me!" at peak conditions with Battle Rage| 4 energy loss every 2.7 seconds, or approximately 4.4 pips of regen lost.
1 more pip, but you lose your elite slot, and the opportunity for 50% more damage [unless you're running IWAY, I suppose].
Either that, or a minor attack speed buff on there too, or something =\

Bull's Charge: This one's just nasty. Take Sprint, drop its duration down slightly, add on a highly conditional knockdown that only triggers if a foe is retreating a certain way [not backing up at reduced speed], and end it immediately if a player tries to combo it with anything.
I'd suggest upping the duration and dropping the conditional ending, or changing it so that it knocks down moving foes period and leaving the rest as is.
As it is now, I'd suggest running Bull's Strike with Sprint much more than this. At least then you could chain off a holy strike without your run buff ending.

Defy Pain: More AL, just what a warrior needs. The health bonus makes them a bit heartier, but in the end, if you're tanking, defensive stances help much more than armor. I much prefer taking skills like Gladiator's Defence if I'm going to be facing monsters and need a little boost, with Dolyak Signet if I need a little armor. I'd suggest adding a minor damage reduction [with or without removing the AL bonus] to this to negate part of the armor ignoring damage you face.1+(X/2) scaling, or something along those lines.

Dwarven Battle Stance: No attack speed buff, and it doesn't take effect if you can't actually hit the foe. Hammers are slow enough that you can even squeeze in 1 second cast spells anyway, even if you're not using block/evade skills. I'd say have it interrupt regardless of whether it hits or not, or let increase the duration even more. Either way, the slow hammer swings negate a huge portion of its usefulness, and ensure that players can still counter it, though kiting is the ultimate counter regardless.
Actually, leaving it the way it is and non-eliting it, you'd probably still not see it all that much. It's just that ineffective.

Flourish: Garbage. Warrior attacks recharge too quickly, adrenal skills are difficult to use it with, and it's strength linked, making it difficult to use elsewhere. Some possibilities for it include making it a stance-like 'skill' that causes attack skills to give 1+(X/8) energy per use and recharge 50% faster, though it'd trod slightly on Warrior's Endurance's toes. Still, it'd be more interesting, and they'd both be different enough for their own purposes.

Warrior's Endurance: You're not going to be an Axe warrior most likely, and it's definitely not made for use as a hammer warrior (slower attack speed), so Sword seems like the intended choice for a Warrior's Endurance warrior. A warrior can move up to their foes and slash them, building up energy to unleash powerful spells... right? Wrong. Warrior's Endurance is sadly negated by kiting, easily, as it's a stance, and you're not going to be able to keep up with foes. Again and again, it always seems to be the problem. The best counter-method I've found is to use Air with Windborne Speed, but there aren't many interesting air spells that you'd want to use as a warrior. [Axe+Earth war has thus far been my favourite. Inflict Weakness, and use stoning every 4 hits with Stonefist Gauntlets].
I'd suggest un-stancing it, making it into a skill like Warrior's Cunning. Or at least adding a minimal run buff to it =\ Theoretical energy gains from this skill are immense, but once you take into account cast+aftercast times on spells, and kiting/blocking/evading/blindness, it's not nearly as effective, which is why I doubt things would change much if people could Frenzy with it on.

Hundred Blades: Excellent PvE skill [like Barrage], not so good in PvP, and no obvious reason for being sword linked other than it requires a sword. Actual damage+adrenal gains on a single target are minimal [1 extra attack every 8 seconds, for a 13% boost in both on the base]. I'd suggest tossing a scaling 3+(X/2) damage per strike, so that you at least get some extra defence ignoring damage on there. (11 per hit at 16 swordsmanship, for a total of +22).

Skull Crack: Drop the elite status, or make it interrupt [1/2 second] attack speed. Concussion Shot is far easier to daze people with, and the energy cost is not as prohibitive with Expertise as it seems. Skull Crack should be the elite version of Concussion Shot gone melee style, with Adrenaline there to temper the high costs. Or cut down the cost to about 4-6 adrenaline so that people can play the lottery a bit more frequently.

===
Elementalist Elites-

Glimmering Mark - 10en, 2 cast, 15 recharge
Elite Hex Spell
For 1+(X) seconds, whenever target foe suffers lightning damage, that foe and all adjacent foes suffer from Blindness for 3 seconds.

Buff up to Nearby or In the Area range. As it is now, you may as well use Blinding Flash in conjunction with Fevered Dreams for In the Area effects =\ You'll rarely see Glimmering Mark in use anywhere.

Mind Spells - 10-15en, 1 cast, 20 recharge
Elite [Hex] Spell
X damage, X damage and effect if your energy > enemy's energy. Causes Exhaustion.

Gee, who couldn't resist using up their elite slot for an exhaustion causing, fairly mediocre priced (good in comparison to other elementalist spells, which are inflated in general) spell that deals meh damage?
Drop the costs to 5, and the recharges to 10 if they're going to keep exhaustion, and let the exhaustion provide the delay in recast, or simply drop the Exhaustion period. Elite spells are supposed to be GOOD. Or drop the Elite status and leave them as they are I suppose.
The conditional effect WILL fail if you try to use it in long battles, as your energy is eaten away, unless you want to stand around with a half-full energy tank while your teammates are putting their all into the battle.

Thunderclap - 10en, 2 cast, 15 recharge
Elite Hex Spell
For 8+(4X/5) seconds, if target foe is struck for lightning damage, that foe and adjacent foes are knocked down, and you lose 15-(8X/15) Energy or Thunderclap ends.

This is a huge energy eater, but un-eliting it would probably be undesirable. One major improvement that should have been done during the debugging is making it so that if the target is already knocked down, you don't lose energy. Though, I do understand that it's an AoE knockdown, and that even if the hexed target is already knocked down, it doesn't mean any other targets can't be, it's enough of an energy hog as it is, without triggering on ineffective knockdowns.
As for 'fixxing it' so that it's used more frequently. It's never going to find much use barring becoming overpowered (such as when it broke), being hex-based.

Elemental Attunement - 10en, 2 cast, 60 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
For 45 seconds, you are attuned to Air, Fire, Water, and Earth. You gain 50% of the Energy cost of the Spell each time you use magic associated with any of these elements.

Drop the recharge to 30 seconds. It's a totally crippling to run an elementalist with this skill when it's not on. Elementalist spells in general have long recharge times that dictate your downtime anyway. As good as this spell would then be for Elementalist spells, it'd still not be all that amazing energy management, as it'd limit what skills you can use anyway.

Glyph of Energy - 5en, 1 cast, 15 recharge
Elite Glyph
Your next Spell costs 20 less Energy to cast and does not cause Exhaustion.

If Elementalist skills don't change globally to become more affordable, then Glyph of Energy requires slightly more effectiveness. Either a little less recharge or a little more energy cost reduction, or both. Regardless, I suggest all glyphs taking 1/4th second to use, as 1.75 seconds with aftercast really crimps your style. It's not as if casting times aren't already prohibitive.

Ether Renewal - 10en, 1 cast, 30 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
For 7 seconds, each time you cast a Spell, you gain 1+(X/8) Energy and 5+(X) Health for each Enchantment on you.

The entire skill concept feels flawed. The only build used with this, really, is E/Mo smiting, and with that nerfed, you hardly see this any more [Though it still is nice for solo-farming some areas]. There aren't many ways to link this to enchantments that won't leave it open to being an uber infinite energy engine, aside from making it worthless. There's just this breakpoint for it, between crappy and broken, with no real middle ground.
I'd suggest removing the Enchantment link and upping the duration to 10 seconds again, making it sort of an Elite Aura of Restoration. 3+(X/2) Energy gained and 10+(2X) health gained every time you cast a spell.
11 energy gained and 42 health each time you cast a spell at max Energy Storage. 6 net energy for 5 cost spells, and 1 energy for 10 cost spells, losing 4 for 15 cost spells, and 14 for 25 cost spells. 2 5 cost spells to pay for it, and afterwards you start gaining. You could still E/Mo smite, and indeed, that'd probably still be one of the best builds for it.
Alternatively, perhaps, "Lose all energy. For the next 1+(2X/3) seconds, you have +2 energy regeneration and +4 health regeneration, and each time you cast a spell, you gain 1+(X/5) energy and 5+(X) health. When Ether Renewal ends, you gain 7+(X/4) energy and 25+(2X) health."
or something. But as it is now, you might as well rename it, "Smiter's Renewal".

Mist Form - 10en, 2 cast, 30 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
For 8+(4X/5) seconds, you cannot take or deal damage from attacks.

Compared to Obsidian Flesh, this is awful. Heck, I'd much rather have an evasion stance any day. You still face the full effects of conditions, interruptions, and knockdowns under Mist Form. It even has an additional penalty preventing you from dealing damage, though that tends to not be a big deal. I'd suggest either causing all attacks to have no effect (the same way Illusionary Weaponry works), or making it targetable, so that you can enchant allies for support. Or both. More versatility is always nice.

Water Trident - 5en, 1 cast, 3 recharge
Elite Spell
Send out a Water Trident at target foe. Water Trident strikes for 5+(4X) cold damage if it hits. If it hits a moving foe, that foe is knocked down

It only knocks down moving foes. Moving foes are not casting foes (though, for some weird reason, queued spells and skills are interrupted by both interrupts and knockdowns when they aren't actually being used). It's not amazing in damage, nor does is its effect all that useful except for halting movement on a single target. Considering this is the elite you're giving up energy management for, I'd like to see a slight damage buff, up to 3+(4.5X), and a recharge reduction down to 2 seconds.

===
Mesmer Elites-

Panic - 25en, 2 cast, 10 recharge
Elite Hex Spell
For 10+(X) seconds, target foe and all nearby foes suffer Energy degeneration of 2 and take 10+(29X/6) damage whenever they use "Signet" rings.

The AoE and duration were buffed in the past, but you still don't really see this one being run. For one, to get parity in energy denial, you have to catch at least 2 people. Additionally, and perhaps more importantly, it has a very hefty price tag, in comparison to removal options. And since this is your elite, you don't get elite energy management. It's a good skill in theory, but unless it gets a more manageable cost, or Healing Balls make a major comeback, I doubt you'll see it run much.

Fevered Dreams - 10en, 2 cast, 10 recharge
Elite Hex Spell
For 4+(2X/3) seconds, whenever target foe suffers from a new "Condition," all foes in the area suffer from that Condition as well.

It doesn't trigger on refreshed conditions, only new ones. That makes it a lot more difficult to use effectively. That's about the only thing I dislike about it. It's otherwise an interesting skill with a huge range, though it won't see much use outside of PvE, likely, where you can have a coordinated team to use it with AND enemies that are foolish enough to bunch up.
The problem is that conditions aren't generally that amazing that it's worth the slot, though the assassin condition combo paired with it could work out nicely, spreading Blindness and Dazed quickly and easily.

Ineptitude - 10en, 1 cast, 20 recharge
For 4+(X/3) seconds, if target foe attacks, that foe takes 10+(29X/6) damage and becomes Blinded for 10 seconds.

The damage isn't amazing and the blindness lasts only have the time. The only people that bring this are gimmick arena-ers, and people who are limited to the Warrior's Bane template. Up the damage on par with Clumsiness, 10+(11X/2), and the Blindness to 15 seconds, or reduce the recharge to 10 seconds.

Energy Drain - 5en, 1 cast, 30 recharge
Elite Spell
Target foe loses 4+(5X/12) Energy. You gain 2 points of Energy for each point of Energy lost.

As Energy Denial, it's unamazing. As Energy Management, it's also meh. You don't really see this being run all that often anymore. I'd like to see it set into the role of energy management again, somewhere along the lines of-
Target foe loses 1+(3X/8) energy. You gain 3 points of Energy for each point of Energy lost.
with a recharge of 20 seconds again, setting it as a ~2 1/3rd pip energy regeneration bonus, and a ~1 pip loss for your foe, or about a net swing of 3 1/3rd pips your way, rather than the 1.65 pips for you, 1.1 pips loss for your foe it is now, putting it about on par with Offering of Blood.

Keystone Signet - 0en, 2 cast, 30 recharge
Elite Signet
All of your Signets except Keystone Signet are recharged. All of your non-Signet skills are disabled for 17-(2X/3) seconds.

A ranger signeteer > a mesmer, with Serpent's Quickness, Quickening Zephyr, and Oath Shot. Heck, Oath Shot, Mantra of Signets, and a Mesmer signet of your choice nets you four consecutive uses at a reasonable cost. Keystone Signet just doesn't compare, and there are neither enough signets, nor does it seem like there will be in the future, to warrant it the way it is now. Drop the recharge to 20 seconds to put it on par with Oath Shot, so that Me/Mo signeteers can spam their Bane Signets 3 times in 25 seconds instead of just 2 or 1.

Mantra of Recall - 10en, 1 cast, 20 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
For 20 seconds, you gain no benefit from Mantra of Recall. You gain 13+(X) Energy when Mantra of Recall ends.

It's usable, but with the whole restriction on wearing a +enchanting mod (because it has no effect if you recast it while it's still up) makes it a little annoying. It's like Divine Boon, in that under less than ideal circumstances, you're likely to waste energy, having to keep 10 around every time to recast it. I'd like to see it as, 5en, 1 cast, 15 recharge, ends in 15 seconds, and you gain 5+(2X/3) energy, going to about 2.8 pips of energy regeneration in equivalent at 16 Inspiration, closer to Offering of Blood, with less initial investment needed to make use of it, and faster returns.

===
Necromancer Elites -

Life Transfer - 10en, 2 cast, 30 recharge
Elite Hex Spell
Life Transfer
For 6+(5X/12) seconds, target foe suffers Health degeneration of 3+(X/3), which you gain as Health regeneration.

Anti-healing breeze and healing breeze all packed into one spell, with a duration to match the effect of a 20% enchanting mod. The energy cost is decent, but the overall effect, and the recharge don't warrant bringing this skill at all. I suggest dropping the recharge time in half so that you can actually keep it up constantly, though, even then, it won't be amazing...

Soul Leech - 10en, 2 cast, 15 recharge
Elite Hex Spell
For 10 seconds, whenever target foe casts a Spell you steal 16+(17X/4) Health from that foe.

Decent cost, cast time, and recharge, all marginally better than Backfire. My only issue with this is that it doesn't function like most life steals. If you cast it on a 55 monk, they'd cast right through it, as it does not go through protections. If it ignored magical defences, the way most life steals do, it'd be a force to be reckoned with.

Well of Power - 15en, 3 cast, 15 recharge
Elite Spell
Exploit target corpse to create a well of power at that location. For 8+(4X/5) seconds, allies within 39' of the Well of Power gain Health regeneration of 1+(X/3) and Energy regeneration of 2.

It's actually a good spell in theory. If you can stand in the well, it almost pays for itself in energy alone. However, the regen bonus still isn't all that amazing, and corpses are precious resources. Rare in PvP, and often put to better use in PvE, with spells like "Putrid Explosion" to end a battle faster, or to raise a minion army.
In practice, wells are hard to discern in appearance, and people that don't need health regeneration are less likely to run in. Particularly the casters, when you've probably killed melee mobs to create the well with, who would actually want it, but would NOT like to run into melee range and get aggro.
As it were, I'd rather take Blood Ritual, Offering of Blood, and Well of Blood any day of the week, for ease of control, versatility, and ability to keep self-energy management.
I suggest dropping the cost to 10, the casting time to 2 seconds [to keep it competitive with other corpse exploits, particularly as it is your elite slot], the recharge to 10 seconds, and scaling Energy Regeneration up to 3, with the algorithm 1+(X/8), or simply increasing the range to cover a larger area with a unique graphic.

Lingering Curse - 25en, 3 cast, 10 recharge
Elite Hex Spell
Sacrifice 10% max Health. Target foe loses all Enchantments. For 8+(4X/5) seconds, target foe gains only half Health from healing.

The enchantment loss effect is great, but the half healing is a meh effect. It doesn't counter regeneration, and it's prone to removal. For the most part, Rend > Lingering Curse. Lingering Curse is basically a buffed Defile Flesh and Rend Enchantments all in one, but with a casting time and energy cost that reflects both. For it's elite status, you'd think it'd be a little more efficient. I'd suggest dropping the cost down to 15 so that people can actually run it, and a 2 second casting time, so that you aren't constantly interrupted while trying to cast it.

Plague Signet - 0en, 1 cast, 10 recharge
Elite Signet
Transfer all negative Conditions and their remaining durations from yourself to target foe. This is an elite skill. (50% failure chance with Curses 4 or less.)

In the arenas, Plague Touch rocks. Elsewhere, Martyr, Restore Conditions, and other forms of monk removal is much more effective (and potentially, Mend Body and Soul from Ritualist). Running Martyr on a monk, with a N/Mo using Draw Conditions+Plague Signet isn't an impressive combo either, and is prone to backfiring when a monk uses Mend Ailment on your target.
What I'd suggest to make it a bit more interesting is to give it a Nearby AoE modifier, so that it inflicts conditions to multiple enemies, becoming an elite version of Plague Sending, similar to Fevered Dreams, but dependent on the enemy's actions instead. Reactive effects should almost always be better than ones you control yourself.

Wither - 10en, 2 cast, 10 recharge
Elite Hex Spell
For 5+(2X) seconds, target foe suffers Health degeneration of 2 and 2 Energy degeneration. Wither ends if that foe's Energy reaches 0

Broken easily by focus swapping, it's an awful use of an elite slot. The health degeneration is a non-issue, and the hex is prone to ending early from smart foes. Malaise is MUCH better than Wither. Panic doesn't end when a foe reaches zero energy, by the way, and it's AoE to boot.
I'd suggest some of the following possibilities-
> Removing the ending condition. It's your elite skill, and the spell can still be removed. Even if it ran its full course, it wouldn't result in all that much energy being denied, in comparison to effects like Debilitating Shot.
>Scaling the health degeneration with the algorithm 1+(X/3), so that it's actually a nuisance to have on you.

Virulence - 5en, 1 cast, 15 recharge
Elite Spell
If target foe was already suffering from a Condition, that foe suffers from disease, Poison and Weakness for 3+(X/3) seconds.

Necromancers already spread Disease and Weakness readily, and this has a conditional requirement to boot. The degeneration caused by it isn't amazing (8), and weakness is an easily achieved effect that recharges relatively quickly anyway. Now that Frag bombing has been rendered neuter, there're very few uses for this skill. And that specific use for this skill was at 0 death attribute.
I'd suggest either reducing the recharge to 8 seconds to make it more spammable, or giving it an AoE component to fit the description, enabling you to punish enemies for clustering, such as warriors ganking a target. Preferrably Nearby, but even Adjacent would be nice.

===
Monk Elites -

Aura of Faith - 10en, 1 cast, 20 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
For 60 seconds, target ally gains 24+(7X/4)% more Health when healed.

Interesting spell in theory, not great in practice. Life Attunement is easily spread, synergizes with Blessed Signet, and is non-elite. It's true that Life Attunement also provides a damage reduction to attacks, but generally, you'll only maintain it on casters anyway, who tend to be squishier. To keep Aura of Faith constantly on 3 targets, you spend 1.5 energy regen maintaining it.
If it were 5 energy cost, recharged in 10 seconds, lasted 30, and gave a slightly better boost, algorithm 15+(4x)%, I'd run it for its versatility and effectiveness. As it is, I'd rather run a prot-booner with elite energy management than Aura of Faith, as they're a lot more flexible.

Peace and Harmony - 5en, 1 cast, 45 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
For 30..78 seconds, target ally gains +1 Energy regeneration. Peace and Harmony ends if that ally attacks or casts a Spell that does not target an ally.

Whoever decided it should end when you cast non-targeted spells should feel very, very, bad. It turned a poor elite into a downright AWFUL elite. Not only is it very limiting, the effect is almost certainly not worth it.
I'd suggest switching it to a 20 second recharge, upping the regeneration to +2, and halving the timer. Then, at least, you could maintain it on 2-3 seperate people for a great energy management... That ends the moment you use Divine Boon or something of the sort. For the restrictions it gives, it should be a lot better than it is now.

Unyielding Aura - 5en, 3 cast, 45 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
Bring target dead ally back to life at full Health and full Energy. If you stop maintaining this Enchantment, or if this Enchantment is removed, that ally dies. Deaths while enchanted with Unyielding Aura do not incur a death penalty. (50% failure chance with a Divine Favor attribute of 4 or less)

The concept of an elite resurrection spell is flawed, in a way. If you bring it, you're a primary monk, expressing a disbelief in the ability of you and the other healers of your team being able to keep your team alive. And under those circumstances, even if you DO bring it, things are hardly going to change. Your team will still die then. Theoretically, anyway. In any case, in practice, the only real reason a monk brings Unyielding is for the ability to kill an ally on demand, holding their very life in their hands. This is a kind of griefing that Anet seems to want to avoid, as evinced by the lack of party damaging skills.
I suggest revising it into an elite Divine Intervention imitation, if anything;
"Unyielding Aura - 10en, 1/4th cast, 25 recharge.
For the next 10 seconds, if target ally would be killed, that ally is immediately brought back to life with 25+(4X)% health and 10+(10X/3)% energy, and their skills are disabled for 10-(2X/5) seconds."
or a Mark of Protection variant;
"Unyielding Aura - 10en, 1 cast, 30 recharge
For the next 3+(X/2) seconds, target ally does not die if their life hits 0. When Unyielding Aura ends, that ally dies if their life is at 0"

Healing Hands - 5en, 1/4th cast, 25 recharge
For 10 seconds, Healing Hands heals target ally for 5+(5X/3) Health each time he suffers physical damage.

Take Healing Seed, raise the healing slightly, reduce the cost, casting time, change it to 'target ally', and limit it to triggering on attacks, and you've got Healing Hands. Even with all of the buffs, is Healing Hands even as useful as Healing Seed? I don't think so, personally...
I'd like to see the recharge dropped down to 20, and the healing upped just a little more, to 2+(3X), or 47 at 15 healing attribute. Or, on the other hand, making it into a non-AoE healing seed would work wonders as well, though it'd be a bit overkill if it triggered on Life Bond damage. At least in that instance, it wouldn't be AoE.

Shield of Deflection - 10en, 1 cast, 5 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
For 6 seconds, target ally has a 50+(5X/3)% chance to Evade attacks and gains 12+(4X/5) AL.

Moveable evasion stance, basically. If it were a little faster, say 3/4th to 1/2 second casting time, I'd like it a bit better. As it is, I mainly see Me/Mo's with Fast Casting using it to combat high damage spikes quickly.

Shield of Regeneration - 15en, 1 cast, 20 recharge
Elite Enchantment Spell
For 5+(2X/5) seconds, target ally gains 3+(X/2) Health regeneration and 40 armor.

Half damage from non-armor ignoring sources, and healing. It'd be nice if it either cost 10 energy, or recharged just a little bit faster, or both.

Signet of Judgment - 0en, 2 cast, 30 recharge
Elite Signet
Target foe is knocked down. That foe and all adjacent foes take 15+(4X) holy damage.

The damage isn't great, the AoE range isn't large, and the recharge timer is downright awful. It's not as if it's an AoE knockdown, either. To improve it, I'd suggest dropping the recharge to 15 seconds, upping the damaging range to Nearby, and changing the damage algorithm to 17+(5X).

===
Ranger Elites-

Marksman's Wager - 5en, 2 cast, 24 recharge
Elite Preparation
For 12 seconds, you gain 5+(X/3) Energy whenever your arrows hit, but lose 10 Energy whenever your arrows fail to strike.

Interesting idea, but Rangers don't often have all that many problems with energy, nor that large an energy pool to fill. I'd like to see the time upped to 16 seconds out of the 24 recharge, so that you get a little more time out of it for whatever odd combo you come up with. Either that, or moved to Marksmanship so that secondary rangers can plink away with arrows too, though I'm not sure how that would turn out.

Melandru's Resilience - 5en, 30 recharge
Elite Stance
For 8+(4X/5) seconds, you gain +2 Health regeneration and +1 Energy regeneration for each Condition and Hex you are suffering.

Barring a build using Martyr on another monk, and Draw Conditions, Melandru's Resilience is a bit difficult to make use of. However, I'm not really sure there's much you can do with it to make it more versatile, aside from de-stancing it. It sucks to have your elite stance removed by a Wild Blow, not to mention it's a bit difficult to make use of as a Ranger, since you really want to run Tiger's Fury for the attack speed buff. On the other hand, a slight timer increase would be nice, algorithm 2+(3X/2), as it's got a lot of downtime for something so conditional.

Poison Arrow - 5en, 1 recharge
Elite Bow Attack
If Poison Arrow hits, your target becomes Poisoned for 5+(X) seconds.

There's no reason to take Poison Arrow when you could have Apply Poison, the way it is now. There's only one way I could see it as being even remotely useful, and that is if it inflicted AoE poison regardless of whether it hit or not, akin to Ignite Arrows, making spreading poison easier than Apply Poison alone.
Thus, "Target foe and adjacent foes become Poisoned for 5+(X) seconds."
An alternative would be to un-elite it. Poison is not really impressive enough for elite status, as indicated by Apply Poison.

Katari · Feb 27, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's not that there's no room for PvE concerns to be aired in a rebalance thread. It's that the vast, vast majority of PvE players don't know the first thing about skill balance or what's breaks the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

So you're asserting that the vast vast majority of PvP players *do* know the first thing about skill balance or what breaks the game?

They might know what balance is, but they certainly don't want it. Know it or not, they simply don't care much about it, unless it hurts them. They want the AI to stand still while they rain firestorms uopn them, they want their -1e Pront Bond back, the dying nightmares gone. Just because Ensign claims that the majoity of PvE players don't know what balance is, dosn't imply that PvP players know it any better.

That being said, when you get an in your face exposure to skills, against players with real builds, I think the balance of skills is easier to see. PvE mobs have up to 5 skills, often 5 skills that don't fit well together, only a limited few even have self-heals. The PvE player sees the effects of his skills, but he rarely notices just what exactly his other teammates are doing. So PvE players may not have such a good understanding of skill-balance, but I don't think that's because they're inferior to PvP players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

And as far as one skill nerf caused by PVP abuse that had a big impact on PVE play? Healing Seed comes to mind.

Yeah, because constanly mantaining Healing Seed on the tank was uneard of. Nobody did that, and certainly not while holding a gear. Sure, it had an impact on PvE play, but was it an unwarented impact? I don't think so.

WasAGuest · Feb 27, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

I don't know why on earth you want to make PvE even easier but this is a bad way of thinking and you should stop.

Sorry, didn't mean for that to sound that way... and it does after I re-read it. What I meant was, I think it would be time better spent on AI, removing annoyances (the wierdly high hit ratio of arrows for example), adding pet and henchy commands - things along that nature.

A general improvement to AI would be wonderful - groups of mobs working together as a better team for example - one foe casts a weaken spell and another hits you with stoning followed by aftershock. A nasty combo that the player would really feel. It's a fair combo used against you and the team and not an annoying "cheat" to make the AI slightly better or more difficult. That's what I meant before... just didn't sound that way.

Coming from other online games where it would take a great deal of effort to take down a single boss, I find (and agree with you in saying it's too easy) foes pretty simple. But we need smarter, more challenging foes, not weaker or more useless* skills.

Too complex? Not if the time were spent on making it work vs other things. My normal group does stuff like this using voice to get some nasty combos going - why can't the AI be made to do it as well?

*Useless in that they have a use in PvP and are about as useful as a flea in PvE do to tweaks to the skill.

Ensign · Feb 27, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

So you're asserting that the vast vast majority of PvP players *do* know the first thing about skill balance or what breaks the game?

Not really. I do think that PvP players are, at the very least, more exposed to what is abusive and what is not, because they're on the recieving end of it. You can happily sit in your own little world in PvE and play whatever you want and have some success with it because that's what the PvE universe is designed for. But if you try to play PvP that way you're just going to get stomped over and over again, so you either have to adapt or quit the game.

Basically competition is a harsher environment that exposes people to better strategies and forces them to adapt. PvE doesn't have that pressure, and it shows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

And as far as one skill nerf caused by PVP abuse that had a big impact on PVE play? Healing Seed comes to mind.

Actually Healing Seed was an even bigger problem in PvE than PvP. One guy with Healing Seed at high spec could maintain it on your aggro-tank indefinitely and basically make a team invincible. Its practical effect was pretty similar to the current Protective Spirit, without all the overhead of setting up an invincimonk.

In PvP Seed was only really relevant in tombs, and even then only on altar matches. The skill was ok in 4 man or GvG but nothing special. The change to Healing Seed actually made it better in those areas by lowering the investment of each cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Another skill that received a ridiculously severe beating from the nerf bat, for no other reason than pvp I can imagine is Ether Renewal.

Did that have any significant impact on the PvE game? No? Right, next question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I mean seriously. I could handle the reduced energy gain. But what the hell am I gonna' do in 7 seconds? cast 2 spells?

You get 4 spells without even trying. 5 if you play it tight or get some fast casts. You can still squeeze a lot of energy out of that thing. It might be possible to creep the duration up a second without breaking anything, but they need to be really careful. That skill is freaking dangerous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

don't know about you guys, but i kinda like the AoE change.

The AoE change was bad for PvE powergaming because it broke the aggro established on your gear tank, which suddenly makes your team somewhat vulnerable. If the other big PvE AI exploits were fixed the AoE change really wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desbreko

However, elementalists could do quite well as primary damage dealers in PvE before the update.

Yep, they were master AI exploiters. Round everything up on the gear tank, then bombard monsters with some of the most horrendous garbage ever made until they died, it didn't matter because monsters tanked the whole thing. Then monster AI abuse gets fixed and people start to realize just how terrible elementalist skills really are.

Funny how a skill can go from uber to garbage solely upon how a monster will (predictably) respond to it, eh?

Peace,
-CxE

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 27, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

My assertion (because everyone ignored it) is that the players are not the best resource to discuss skill balance. PVP players (and even more, top ranked PVP players) ALWAYS think they know better. Nothing could be further from the truth.

And my point about healing seed wasn't whether the skill nerfing was warranted or not - you asked which PVP skill nerfing had an effect on PVE play - and Seed was my first thought. Healing Seed was abused in PvP - you don't see too many seed ball teams anymore in HA anymore do you? I noticed the change in hall of heros the first time I played after the skill was nerfed, and that's why I brought it up. Whether it should've been nerfed or not isn't the issue, only that it did change is.

Shrug. I'm sure after the next nerfing and skill boosting there will be plenty of people whining and crying over it.

Ensign · Feb 27, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

My assertion (because everyone ignored it) is that the players are not the best resource to discuss skill balance.

Then what is? Everyone ignored your assertion because you failed to substantiate it at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Then what is the truth? Who really does understand what's abusive and what's not in PvP, or even PvE?

I'm seriously curious who you think is qualified to talk about what's broken if the people who break things aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I noticed the change in hall of heros the first time I played after the skill was nerfed

I think your memory of events is a bit unclear and that's leading you to bad conclusions. Let's go over the history of healing balls in tombs briefly for everyone's benefit.

The game comes out in April of 2005. People start PvPing a few days later and everyone kinda stumbles around trying to figure out what's good. A few guilds are interested in GvG but the ladder is abandoned, people complain of hour long waits for matches. Most of the action is in Tombs. After a few weeks a dominant hall-holding strategy emerges - the healing ball. The strategy relies upon nested enchantment webs that make a team incredibly difficult to kill. Upon capping the dais in the Hall of Heroes, the healing ball would stand in place on the dais and prevent everyone from dying until the clock expired. Ball and ball breaking strategies dominated the HoH for the month of May.

At the beginning of June a bug was fixed with the skill Nature's Renewal. Previously the 'remove all enchantments and hexes' part of the skill did not function, but now it worked, every time, with a map-wide range. Healing balls died an overnight death. Strategies featuring massive spirit defenses became popular since enchantment defenses were no longer viable. After a few iterations a version featuring massive spirit defenses and power interrupts, ala Incendiary Arrows, became the dominant strategy in the Hall of Heroes.

That was the environment everyone lived in until August 25th, the date of the first widespread balance changes to Guild Wars. In that update Nature's Renewal was changed into the iteration that you're now familiar with. What has been forgotten, however, is that this was also the update where Healing Seed was changed from a 15 energy, 8...21 second skill to a 10 energy, 10 second skill.

If you know your history then you'll know that by the time Healing Seed was changed the healing ball was almost a distant memory. If you noticed a change in Tombs right after Healing Seed was changed it was probably the abundance of Ether Renewal powered E/Mo smiters going nuts in the new, Nature's Renewal free environment.

Peace,
-CxE

Roza · Feb 27, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

I think that there is no skill which really needs to be nerfed at the moment, including IWAY, Crippling shot or SS. What is needed instead is some upgrading of other skills. Energy Tap, Energy Drain have both been overnerfed, I think (is anyone using them atm at all?). Fire ele skills could use an upgrade, as well as water ele skills. Blood necro skills could use one as well. And there are a lot of warrior skills out there that are rarely used because at the moment, they are not good enough. The same is true for some ranger skills (beast mastery, for example).

Overall though, the game is pretty balanced at the moment. None of the skills mentioned for nerfing are really 'overpowered'. You don't see teams of 6 crippling shot rangers, for example, or 3 necro's with echoed SS. These skills are quite useful, but serve a limited purpose. If Anet wants to see more diversity, I hope they will 'power-up' some skills instead of powering others down.

General Surena · Feb 27, 2006, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Most change suggestions have been mentioned and already discussed overly.

What I would really like to see is the removal of the retarded "gear/book" method/trick. The farming engine's fixiation on an item the farmer only values by its necessity to catapult him into the millionaire's club which on the other side leads AI mobs to complete martyrdom remains a mystery to me in terms of challenge and balance. The purpose of high-level mobs to me is to expect a challenge not only in damage numbers but also in strategy. I want Summits/Avicarae to stop during Empathy/SS, change targets during battle (spiking from monk to Necro to the weakest or most dangerous character etc.).

Of course I can only speak for myself but the current AI code welcomes you with open arms to abuse it - of course you will tell me that there doesn't need to be any buffs since you don't abuse it but just use it the way it is. Of course you do, anything else just hurts, doesn't it?

If Anet tries to bring PVP and PVE closer and closer with every chapter/upgrade then hopefully they invest a bit into enemy AI, making it less dumb. It might become a problem for casual gamers but those very special enemies can be moved to later missions and/or areas you don't need for the storyline. And right now it's the end-quests which people ride rodeo on without the horse moving a leg.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 27, 2006, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

A monster AI update has so little to do with PvP that it isn't funny. How can you even pretend that a tweak that has no effect on PvP whatsoever was 'made to help PvP at the expense of PvE'?

Oh, right, because if you didn't you'd have to concede the argument. And that is simply unacceptable compared to the alternative of making yourself look stupid.

The Ai monsterupdate was done after the complaints of pvp-people to make pvp and pve more resemble each other. In stead of the dumb aggro all, get them around you and nuke till tomorrow comes. I never stated that I didn't find it a good idea. I just gave it as an example of the effect of pvp on pve, which ain't directly but it did have an influence. What I did postulate was that in stead of completely making it like resemble pvp they could at least buff it since they already knew it was nearly never used in pvp, with the exception of some distinct cases. Check how many fire eles you'll find in pvp in correlation with air eles or earth eles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yeah that was a really common complaint back then. I know I for one was leading the charge of angry PvP players who wanted PvE to look like PvP.

I hav eno clue who was the speakingtube for it, nor did I care, but it did happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The skill has recieved buff after buff after buff and you're going to put it on the list of 'PvE skills that were destroyed because of PvP concerns'?

It received buff after buff untill it got nerfed by the batt because of pvp concerns concerning guild lord abuse. Even though it was still a crappy but situational usefull skill in pve. Once more its an indication of the effect of pvp on pve, it doesn't matter if before it got buff after buff, in the end it did get a nerf because of pvp concerns. If you don't want to accept that, then so be it... but then stop acting like you know it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Right, it wasn't exactly, well, even used in PvE so why are you even bringing it up?

Because I used it a lot in pve. At least untill the moment they changed it and completely made it useless for nearly any balanced build. Only builds it is good for is in builds that don't use hexes or enchants like our trusted iway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Maybe you didn't get the question the first time. We are looking for a *single important PvE skill* that was made useless in PvE *solely because of its abuse in PvP*. We're not looking for skills that were never important in PvE but broke PvP. We're looking for skills that were important parts of PvE strategy but got nerfed for reasons other than PvE.

Doesn't matter if it was an important skill or not. It still got nerfed for pvp reasons. Not to mention that they were important enough for me, since i liked them. Besides, the examples other people gave were good as well, but like I stated before... if it doesn't fit in your stand you bemean it even though they did get hit with the nerf batt for pvp reasons, not for pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Right, those changes to Grenth's Balance and Nature's Renewal are still leaving shockwaves in the PvE community as players struggle to adapt to the loss of those key PvE powergaming skills.

The effects on PvE of the PvP nerfs to date have been so minimal that it's laughable.

It doesn't matter how big the effect was, it matters that it got altered in favor for pvp. That was the point I/we were trying to make. Not to mention that I never really cared for those changes seeing that I adapted afterwards. But again, the effect is non important. It is important that pvp influenced pve. Since that is what we were trying to postulate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

By 'over time' we're talking timeframes greater than half a second here. Only thing that outdamages a single warrior in his own right is a minion necro with momentum from previous mobs. There's always AI abuse, but, you know.

Eles still kill mobs faster then warriors. Talking about air eles, so no ai abuse possible as you like to call it. Only way you might be right is when the warrior has still got all his adrenaline pumped up from wanding a person or hitting a previous person. So he can land a fast string.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Huh? What does targeting in PvP have to do with PvE at all?

Warriors aren't used as damage dealers in PvE because they do not have massive AI exploitation tools on that front. The place they can exploit AI is through gear tanking, by forcing all the bots to attack him and then making himself as close to invincible as possible. One warrior can take the defensive burden of the entire team, and so he does.

The warrior does have one mass damage AI exploit skill - Gladiator's Defense. Coincidentally that skill also helps out with the warrior's AI exploit roles. It's the best warrior skill in PvE hands down.

If people get targetted in pvp, they will be less prone to go full out damagepotential and utility and add either some interesting skills to counter getting attacked, which in turn would decrease their damagepotential.

Not to mention that I'm getting somewhat tired of all your assertions concerning AI abuse... go and look in ta, ra etc and look how many people would still attack a monk if it took gladiators defense along and some added armorbuffs and how many people don't even bother to bring warriors cunning. What you call abuse, I call prioritizing. Because of the lack of other targets the AI prefers to keep on hittign the thing they see in stead of mindless stumbling about and getting killed before being usefull.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Uh, no, I'm pretty sure our guys are smart enough to run past your shitty stance tank and look for the softies in the back, because we know they're there even if we can't see them.

Good, thats just what I wanted to hear. Since now x secs later you'll be dead. Ignore my tanks while they were just able to make me target you. So I can outspike you with my air eles/ order rangers. Since All I used the tanks for where scouts, since you're so singleminded to only target the weaklings. You can only use so many res signets. If you can't see me... it changes your prioritizing substantially, if you can't see that then i'm sorry. But please, try a couple pvp matches and don't use the radar (or make it the size of your aggrobubble) and see if it is still as easy to beat people or target these weakling...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That is an astute observation. Implied with that comment is 'all opinions are equal'.

Which is of course unmitigated garbage. If an opinion is based upon ignorance and mistruths there is absolutely no reason anyone should do anything other than laugh at it. If an opinion is based upon knowledge and understanding of the issues then it's something that you should pay attention to.

The point isn't that all opinions are garbage, but the point is that each opinion can be considered correct because of reasons outside of your knowledge. What you mioght consider laughable at first could be considered the grand thruth even if it goes agaisnt every logical fiber in your body, although that might just be singlemindedness on your part as well. Just as in the past people that considered the earth to be flat were ridicolised for their opinion and encarcerated... they however are considered now to be some prime thinkers. There are countless other opinions just like that. Because of that each opinion should be respected, even if you consider it garbage extraordinaire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Because if they don't attack they aren't threatening and no one cares about them.

bodyblocks, runners, etc... sure they are non threatening. even though without skillusage they are still very good damage over time mittigators. Although not spikedamage as the metagame is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm just going to keep quoting you whenever you express an opinion about what's good in PvP to remind everyone of your credibility.

Regarding Spiteful Spirit - my point is that balancing points are irrelevant in PvE. Spiteful Spirit would still be used extensively in PvE even if it cost 25 energy, took 4 seconds to cast, and had a 60 second cooldown. Why? Because it's the only AoE exploit option left. AI abuse is such a powerful tool in PvE that skill power becomes irrelevant

Sigh, I never stated that empathy was great... it is usefull but everyone knows that people can outheal the damage from empathy. Although if some person just keeps on swinging, so much cooler for me, since i prolly wouldn't need 4 spikes, could now do it with 3. Or if one of the rangers does 3 barrages after each other and didn't look azt his own healthbar due to other concerns.

My point was that balancing isn't entirely about energy, casttime... but about putting counters in the mobs, changign up their skillsetups etc... changing skills is only a small part of it, but still important enough in its own right. Not to mention that balance doesn't matter in how fast you can kill something, but in the options you have available to reach the same objective. If i have 400 skills that are just as devestating in their own right, then that would be balance. If I am abusing the ai to get them all as powerfull is outside of the question on the short term but only important o nthe long term since it would mean the ai needs to be fixed and these skills need to be buffed. To put them on the same level as the other skills. And that is something you seem to forget. All you seem to think about is, people wouldn't do that, so this is ai abuse. I would say smart people wouldn't do that, but who stated everybody is smart? Or that it is important what people would do... i never seen a person call down a meteorshower either, or be insta healed. But I don't hear you complain about that... but guess what thats because its part of gameplay... just as aggroing and keeping the aggro is part of gameplay in this game and not mere AI abuse...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

What are you talking about? I haven't made any comments about what I thought should be done with Firestorm. Can you please restrain your criticisms to points I have actually made, instead of ones you wished I had made?

Firestorm was an AI abuse skill. Because of that it was going to be a powerhouse in PvE, pretty much regardless of how weak the actual effect was. Now it's not an AI abuse skill, at least not a gross one that's terribly abusive, so at least in theory it *could* be balanced, for either PvP or PvE. But again, I don't feel that's relevant for PvE because, as mentioned, it's not an AI abuse skill anymore. It doesn't matter how good they make Firestorm as long as Spiteful Spirit destroys the AI.

I didn't assert you as in the individual you, but as in the general pvp person.

And the overpoweredness of SS has no real bearing on the reasons why firestorm should not be buffed... If SS is to powerfull it wil get a downwards adjustment. My point has however been that firestorm is a near useless spell now comparing with so many other spells... even fireball and therefore is long overdue for a buff. Which it should have had at the same time as the AI got updated. For the same reasons as i postulated above. They already had the experience of the suckagelevel of firelines in pvp and they still went and made the ai more resemble pvp standards without even buffing these DOT spells...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

At first it was celebrated as a gimmick build, a neat trick that was fun to play. Now it's everywhere, because it's an overpowered machine that's degenerating the game. That's the process everything that's overpowered takes.

The difference, as I mentioned, is the attitude. If iWay gets hit with the nerf stick the community will rejoice. If a PvE equivilent, say, the 55 monk, gets obliterated this forum is going to be unreadable for a week due to all the bitching, whining, threats to quit the game, hate mail, petitions for a reversion, and otherwise opposition to the removal of that festering sore.

Doesn't matter if something was a gimmick build or not, hte point still stands it was overpowered at that time and people still celebrated it even though it took no skill whatsoever as i have seen people writing on this forum (and others). But complaining is peoples second nature... and i still see people noticing that iway should not be nerfed since that it would be useless otherwise. So please don't come with the statement that pvp people are more reasonable... we are all people and we don't like to see our toy get taken away.

And there you are, generalising again... If the 55 monk/necro/ele is going to get nerfed I'm going to be mad happy seeing as i consider that one of the worst inventions ever seeing as it completely destroys the sociability factor and difficulty of forming groups. I just hope that in doing so they aren't going to nerf some of the skills in question which the 55 monk uses. The point people will make though is not the point about the 55 monk to be taken away, but to increase the drops for full parties since that is exactly the reason why people do these 55 monk runs. Just as the outcry in most cases wasn't about the AI balancing, but the extreme nerfing of a skill/line to suckage levels.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

You failed. GG.

well, so be it. It is hard to convince somebody set in hteir own ways.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

And demonstrated rather conclusively why they were ignorant, if I may be so bold.

You can be bold all you want. In the end the points I made were maybe not the best, but they had merit nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I respect your right to have an opinion. That in no way means that I have to take your opinion seriously. You will not be heard until you have something to say, sorry. If the only responses that you can make to my charges are ad hominem...well, I rest my case.

Peace,
-CxE

That is the right you have, but then don't be surprised if people consider your behaviour to be that of an elitist person set in his own little ways.

Anyaway, pick on it as you want, this was my last post i nthis thread concerning our little difference in opinion. You won't look at it from a different point anyway, so why waste more time postulating it...

Symbol · Feb 27, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Grenth's balance didn't get nerfed. It was bugged. The bug was fixed.

Also, PvP players didn't call for the AI change, and pretending they did is really dishonest.